Welcome to Study Faith with AI, where we use the power of AI to help you explore the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm Meg Jensen.

And I'm Paul Carter,

and we're Google AIs. Whether you're a lifelong member or just starting to learn about the Church, we're here to dive deep into its history, beliefs, and culture.

So, if you're ready to learn, you're in the right place.

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Welcome back to the deep dive. Today we're turning our focus to someone really uh foundational but also maybe one of the most complicated figures in early Latter-day Saint history. Martin Harris.

Absolutely. Martin Harris is just critical. He was one of the original three witnesses to the Book of Mormon plates alongside Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer.

And those testimonies I mean saying they actually saw the plates and specifically in Harris's case heard God's voice telling them to bear witness.

Well, they were and honestly still are incredibly important for believers.

Yeah, they're central. But what makes Martin Harris's story so compelling and um let's be honest, kind of challenging is that even with this incredibly powerful core spiritual experience, he eventually split off from the early Church that Joseph Smith was leading,

Right? It wasn't just a simple case of, "Oh, I don't believe anymore."

No, not at all. As we'll, you know, dig into the historical documents, we've got things like old meeting minutes, personal letters from back then, articles, transcripts of accounts. His journey was really tangled up with, well, money problems, personality clashes, big disagreements over leadership and how things should be run.

And even it seems some instances of physical intimidation directed at key people.

Exactly. That layer is there too.

So our mission today in this deep dive is really to use these sources to unpack that whole complex journey. We want to get a handle on who Martin Harris actually was, the specific setbacks he ran into, the criticism he had, where his religious path took him after he left, and, you know, how he eventually circled back later in life.

So maybe let's start with the man himself.

Who was Martin Harris before all the Book of Mormon stuff?

Good place to start. What do the sources tell us?

Well, they paint a picture of a pretty significant guy in the Palmyra, New York area. A relatively wealthy farmer, actually quite a bit older than Joseph Smith. Martin was in his 40s when they first really connected.

Okay, so he wasn't some young impressionable kid. He was established, had life experience. Precisely. People at the time described him as a man of honor, known for being honest, hardworking, pretty shrewd in business. He held some minor local offices like overseer of highways, owned a good chunk of land, maybe 600 acres. His wealth was estimated around $10,000, which was yeah, it was a lot back then.

But alongside that solid, respectable, worldly side, the sources also consistently point to a really complex, often uh eccentric religious personality.

Yes, that duality is just key. You have to grasp both sides. Some people saw him as a visionary. Others thought he was easily influenced, maybe prone to arguments.

Some local clergy apparently even called him a fanatic.

And he had his own unique religious ideas even before meeting Joseph.

Yeah. He claimed he'd received divine inspiration way back around 1818, telling him not to join any of the Churches around. And he apparently really wrestled with the idea of the trinity.

Right. There are those um memorable anecdotes like the one where he supposedly told someone he had more proof to prove nine persons in the Trinity than you have of three.

Exactly. Or that other story, I think it's from John Clark's account claiming Harris once talked to a deer he thought was Christ.

Now, whether those stories are literally true or not,

right, their accuracy is debated, but they definitely show how people perceived his religious intensity, his kind of unconventional thinking. He also seemed convinced he had special spiritual insight, sometimes saying he'd been shown 10 times more than other people.

And we can't really talk about this early period without mentioning his first wife, Lucy Harris. Their relationship seems pretty central to the early drama.

Oh, absolutely. The sources describe Lucy as well, peculiar, often jealous, suspicious, argumentative. One source even says she was high on combativeness, and there was definitely a rivalry there when it came to Joseph Smith and the plates. She actively tried to undermine Martin's support right from the start.

Okay, so you have this complex guy, successful farmer, respected in some ways, but also religiously intense and eccentric with a difficult marriage and he gets involved with the Smiths and the Book of Mormon story. How did that connection even begin?

Well, he got pretty close to the Smith family about a year or so before the plates were actually announced. Some sources even hint he might have been part of an informal group, maybe called the Gold Bible Company, interested in looking for treasure.

But when he first heard about Joseph having plates, he wasn't immediately sold, was he?

Oh, no. Far from it. Initially, he kind of brushed it off thinking it was just those money diggers finding, like, an old brass kettle. That's the quote.

But something made him look closer.

Yeah, he decided to do his own investigation. Basically, a sort of independent verification.

What did that involve? According to the records,

Well, he went over to the Smith home when Joseph wasn't there and he interviewed Emma, Joseph's wife, about the plates. Then he apparently talked to other family members one by one, getting their stories.

And they all lined up?

Pretty much. Yeah. Similar accounts. Later, he spoke directly with Joseph who confirmed the details, but there was a key physical moment that seems to have really hit him. He actually lifted the box that supposedly held the plates, and he was just struck by how heavy it was. Described it as dense, like lead or gold. He knew the Smiths couldn't afford something like that. Couldn't have faked it easily. That weight seemed very real to him.

And you've got to place this whole experience, as the sources remind us, within the kind of folk culture of that time and place.

Absolutely crucial point. Ideas about angels, divine dreams, using seer stones, finding enchanted treasure, spirits helping people. These weren't weird outlier ideas. This was part of the cultural toolkit people used to understand and talk about extraordinary things, spiritual experiences, even treasure hunting.

And Joseph Smith reportedly had a specific message for Martin Harris connecting him directly to this work.

Yes. Joseph said the angel told him he needed to stop associating with the money diggers and clean up his act morally speaking. But critically, Joseph also told Martin that when he looked into the seer stone that came with the plates, he actually saw Martin Harris identified as the person chosen to help translate and publish the book.

Wow. How did Martin react to being singled out like that?

Well, he was cautious at first. He quoted scripture. You know, cursed is everyone that puts his trust in man. Smart move. But he also made a promise - conditional though. He said, "If the Lord showed him this was his work, then Joseph could have all the money you want."

So, he needed his own confirmation.

Exactly. He prayed about it and the sources say he felt this powerful confirmation from God described as the still small voice. He felt he was then under covenant to help. That seems to have been his conversion moment, his personal conviction that this was real.

And his role then became absolutely vital, didn't it? Especially the money part.

Indispensable really. He put up the money to print the Book of Mormon. That was a huge financial risk for him. And the sources are clear. It put immense strain on his marriage - all the time and money involved. Plus, he served as a scribe for Joseph for a couple of months.

But then came that major disaster, the one that really damaged the relationship, the loss of the 116 manuscript pages.

Yeah, that was huge. Happened around summer 1828. Martin had pressured Joseph to let him take the pages home, probably to show his skeptical wife, Lucy. He lost them. Gone. And it caused a serious rift and estrangement between him and Joseph for a while.

How serious was it?

Well, some early revelations now in the Doctrine and Covenants actually called Martin a wicked man because of it. That tells you how seriously that breach of trust was viewed at the time.

But he did come back in 1829 just as the translation was getting finished. What pulled him back in then? 

It seems like it was mainly external pressure. Interestingly enough, driven by his wife Lucy again. She was actively trying to gather testimonies in Palmyra to sue Joseph Smith claiming he was defrauding Martin.

So she was trying to cause trouble.

Big time and potential witnesses were apparently threatening Martin, saying they had enough dirt to jail Joseph and they jail Martin too, unless he testified against Joseph. This seems to have panicked him and he started seeking a greater witness, something more than just that earlier, still small voice.

And that desire for a bigger witness seems directly connected to the whole idea of the three witnesses, right?

It really does. The revelation, promising three witnesses would see the plates that's now Doctrine and Covenants section 5, came right after Martin started pushing for this higher level of proof. Some sources suggest the timing might even have been influenced by the legal situation, needing multiple witnesses for important matters.

And later, when he talked about his witnessing experience, he made a distinction that caused some debate.

Yes, he consistently said he saw the plates in vision, not with his natural eyes. He stuck to that description his whole life. It became, you know, a point of discussion and criticism, especially for people outside the faith.

Okay. So, the Church gets organized April 6th. 1830, the very day he's baptized. And he's initially very involved, right?

Oh, yeah. Very active. He travels out to Kirtland, Ohio, gets there in March 1831. And the sources, like local newspapers, report him being quite vocal, maybe even a bit flippant sometimes, talking about the plates, and Joseph Smith in public places like hotel barrooms.

He seemed totally convinced.

Absolutely believed everything he said was straight from the spirit. He was even prophesying Christ's return in 15 years. And damned people who didn't believe. He led one of the early groups of Saints to Kirtland, became part of the United firm, that early Church financial setup, and was put on the Kirtland High Council, a major leadership body,

And ordained an apostle.

The sources indicate that, too. Yes. February 1835, ordained by Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, and interestingly himself participating in the ordination.

Okay, this is where things get really fascinating. He's a founder, a witness, the money guy, a leader. So, what on earth led him to eventually dissent and break away from Joseph Smith.

Well, the Kirtland period brought huge challenges. Building the Kirtland Temple, the house of the Lord created massive debt both for the Church and individuals. That financial pressure was a really big deal.

And that feeds right into the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, the bank.

Exactly. The sources are pretty clear. The stress from that bank collapsing, the debts piling up, it caused a major rift. It led some people, including Joseph Smith's closest allies, like the other witnesses, to start questioning his leadership. It wasn't just about money anymore. The discontent kind of spread, escalated into questioning his religious authority, his prophetic guidance.

So, the bank failure wasn't just, "Oops, we lost money." It actually eroded spiritual trust.

The sources strongly suggest that's what happened for a lot of folks. I mean, think about it. They'd put their trust and their money into something started and pushed by their prophet. When it crashed so badly, it raised that awful question. If he couldn't get guidance right on temporal things, could you trust him on spiritual things?

Were there other factors in the failure?

Oh, yeah. Sources mentioned things like a national economic downturn, maybe some corrupt clerks inside the bank, and it's noted Joseph Smith himself lost the most and seemed honest in the records. But the outcome was devastating for trust. It created this environment where confidence in his leadership just plummeted for many, including Martin Harris. It was a huge factor in his split with Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon.

And did Martin voice specific criticisms of Joseph around this time?

He did. One source talks about a visit he made back to Palmyra later in this period and he was apparently quite harsh. Reportedly called Joseph Smith a complete wretch and said he had no confidence in him or Rigdon. Strong words.

And he didn't just criticize privately. He actually joined up with other dissenters in Kirtland.

Yes. By January 1838, he was clearly aligned with a group of other prominent people who were unhappy. Figures like Warren Parish who had been Joseph's secretary, Joseph Cole, Luke John and John Boon. They actually incorporated their own Church group calling it the Church of Christ,

Harking back to the original name.

Exactly. And Martin served as a trustee for that group.

And this dissenting group, they were still using the Kirtland Temple even though they disagreed with Joseph's leadership.

That's what the sources indicate. Yeah. They continued to worship there. And it was apparently during this time while associating with the dissenters that Martin is recorded repeating his testimony, saying again he saw the plates in vision. Okay, so looking back at Martin Harris's sharp criticisms, calling Joseph a wretch, losing all confidence, they really fit into this incredibly turbulent storm of leadership crisis, financial collapse, nasty personal accusations, and even for some of these physical threats swirling among the top leaders.

Absolutely. And his specific criticisms like saying the Church needed to ditch the name Latter-day Saints, calling it fictitious, and go back to being the Church of Christ, back to their first love, that really echoes the feelings of other dissenters who felt the Church under Joseph's evolving leadership and new practices had lost its way from its simpler beginnings.

So after this definitive break, Martin Harris's religious path becomes, as one source puts it, kind of all over the place.

That's a pretty good description. Yeah.

Yeah,

It definitely wasn't a straight line. He actually did come back to the main Church body briefly. Sources show he was accepted back in July 1840. He's listed in a high priest quorum in 1841. And he even got rebaptiized in November 1842 during a big religious reformation effort in the Church.

But that didn't stick.

No, not for long. Soon after that, by 1842 or 43, he's associating with other movements again. He apparently followed Mother Ann Lee and the Shakers for a bit, believing in their spirit messages. Then he got linked to this strange publication in 1843 called The Divine Role.

The Divine Role.

Yeah. And unbelievably, it referred to him, Martin Harris, as the messenger of the covenant and said he was sent forth to do the work of Elijah. Pretty wild stuff. Then later in 1851 back in Kirtland, he acted as a witness for a guy named Francis Gladen Bishop who claimed he had sacred relics. Brigham Young later supposedly said Harris had given that Holy Roll thing to Bishop.

So jumping between these quite different groups and ideas.

It seems like it. But interestingly, even while exploring these other things, he apparently kept ties with that original dissenting Church of Christ group that stayed behind in Kirtland.

The one he helped incorporate.

That's the one. He stayed connected with them. By 1858, they were using both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as their scriptures. He even performed a baptism for them in 1857 that got reported in the local newspaper. He also had a short and apparently stormy involvement with William Smith, Joseph's brother, when William tried to set himself up as a prophet in Kirtland. One source says Martin eventually drove William out and damned him to hell. So, yeah, volatile.

This whole period sounds like he was just constantly searching for something.

That's exactly what the sources suggest. It seems like those intense early experiences with Joseph, the translation, that whole millenarian worldview, that was the absolute pinnacle for him religiously. And all these later ventures seemed kind of fleeting. Maybe attempts to somehow recreate that original feeling, that worldview he'd lost connection with in the main Church.

Meanwhile, his second wife, Caroline, and their kids had moved out to Utah in 1857. But Martin stayed behind in Kirtland alone for about 12 years. What was his life like then?

Yeah, from about 1857 to 1869 he was alone in Kirtland and the sources paint a pretty bleak picture honestly. They describe him as becoming increasingly poor, destitute, not well-clothed, feeble, kind of a burden on the community. Around 1867 or ' 68, things were apparently so bad that a local township trustee was actually thinking about taking him to the poor house.

That's incredibly sad considering his earlier wealth and standing.

It really is. Eventually, a sympathetic local woman took him into her home. Reports say he was willing to work, but just physically too frail by then.

But he still had the Kirtland Temple nearby and he took on a kind of role there, didn't he?

He did. He sort of became the unofficial keeper of the Kirtland Temple. While he was living there alone, he would give tours to visitors, including Latter-day Saints who were passing through Kirtland.

What were those tours like?

Apparently, he would absolutely bear his testimony of the Book of Mormon. He held on to that. But at the same time, he'd often express bitterness, talk about his problems with Brigham Young and the Apostles, starting the Church out in Utah. So, a mix of testimony and grievance.

So, given his poverty, his age, his criticisms of the Utah leadership, what finally led him to actually move out to Utah and rejoin the main body of Saints there?

A key moment seems to be a visit in 1869. A man named William Homer came to see him. Homer's ancestor had actually been converted years before when Martin Harris gave him a Book of Mormon.

Wow. A connection from way back.

Yeah. And Homer's visit apparently really softened Martin's heart. Homer emphasized that his family in Utah loved him, missed him, wanted him to come visit. Martin was hesitant. He said he didn't have money, and he was pretty skeptical that Brigham Young would actually help him get there. He apparently only agreed at first if it could be a round trip.

He wanted an escape route.

Seems like it. But then his son, Martin Harris, Jr., who was in Utah, wrote to Brigham Young explaining the situation. And then Edward Stevenson, a prominent Church leader, visited Martin in February 1870. found him open to the idea and Stevenson went back to Utah and started fundraising to pay for Martin's trip west.

And he finally went. What was it like when he arrived in Utah in August 1870?

By all accounts, it was just overwhelming for him. He came by train, which was new, and he was reportedly just stunned by the sheer size and scale of the Church community in Utah, all the development. He apparently felt like he'd fallen way behind, missed out on so much.

But there's one really specific, powerful moment that's recorded, isn't there?

Yes. It's quite moving. He was taken on a carriage ride up along the mountain side overlooking the Salt Lake Valley and seeing the city laid out, seeing the large population of Saints gathered there, he was apparently just overcome with emotion and exclaimed, "Who would have thought the Book of Mormon could do all this?"

That's an incredible thing for him to say after everything. What did that moment signify for him, do you think?

Well, sources suggest that in that moment, seeing the tangible results the community built, he felt he was seeing the fulfillment of a patriarchal blessing he'd received way back in 1835. That blessing had said his testimony of the Book of Mormon would help convert thousands. Seeing all those people, the city they built, it seemed to validate the reality and the impact of the Book of Mormon in a way that maybe transcended all the conflicts he'd had with the leaders or the institution over the years. That core witness, the book itself, seemed powerfully confirmed for him right then.

So, after decades away, after all the criticism and wondering, he did come back fully in the end.

Yes. Yes, he was rebaptized into the Church at age 87, later in 1870. He lived out his last few years in Utah in a town called Richmond and passed away there in 1875.

Okay, let's try to pull all these different threads together now. Yeah.

His unique character, his powerful witnessing experience, his dissent, his later searching, his eventual return. What does Martin Harris's whole story teach us today? Especially about the early Church and maybe Joseph Smith's leadership.

Well, the sources really give us an unvarnished look, don't they? You see the immense pressures inside that early Church movement. You see the real world impact of things like the Kirtland Bank failure, how it wasn't just about money. It triggered deep spiritual crises and divisions.

Yeah.

It shows Joseph Smith's leadership faced real severe challenges. People questioned him not just vaguely, but based on specific perceived failures like the bank, calling him things like impetuous or financially naive.

Definitely. And the sources make it clear that dissent wasn't always just about doctrine. Financial pressures, personality clashes, think about his issues with Rigdon, or later William Smith, disagreements over the Church's name or direction. All these things fueled breaks among leaders who'd had profound spiritual experiences together.

So, it wasn't always a clean break over theology.

Often, it wasn't. Martin's story really highlights how difficult it must have been for individuals to navigate their own powerful spiritual convictions alongside the realities of a growing changing institution with very human leaders and inevitably conflict. So bringing it forward to today, what are the key takeaways for people listening now from Martin Harris's journey, his dissent, his unwavering testimony, his complex path, his return?

I think one huge takeaway is that it's actually possible to have a genuinely powerful lifechanging spiritual witness, like seeing an angel handling sacred plates, and still struggle significantly with the Church as an organization or with its leaders or with its direction at certain points.

The personal testimony and the institutional relationship aren't always perfectly in sync.

Exactly. They can be in tension. And his story shows that difficulties or even breaking away can stem from a really complex mix of things. It might be finances, personal conflicts, policy disagreements, or just perceiving human flaws in leaders. It's not always about losing faith in the foundational events.

And critically, he shows you can hold on to a core testimony like his unwavering belief in the Book of Mormon's divine origin even while being estranged from the main Church body. that claims that testimony as its foundation.

That's a powerful point. His testimony of the Book of Mormon seemed independent in a way from his relationship with the institution at various times.

And lastly, maybe there's a message of hope in his return late in life, but he came back.

I think so. It highlights the enduring pull of those foundational experiences and also the importance of connection family community outreach like with William Homer and Edward Stevenson in potentially bridging those gaps even after decades of separation and difficulty. It suggests reconciliation is possible.

It really is a life that defies easy labels, deep faith, profound experiences, but also wandering, questioning, practical businessman, visionary mystic, foundational witness, outspoken dissenter.

Absolutely. Martin Harris's story, as we've seen through these sources, is just undeniably complex. He was clearly a man of intense conviction, driven by what he felt was the spirit, even when it led him down paths that diverged sharply from the main road.

Yet through all of it, the breaks, the criticisms, the joining with other groups, that one thing remained constant. His testimony of the Book of Mormon, the angel, the plates. He saw it. He said he handled it. He knew it was true. And he testified of it right up to the end.

His life is a stark reminder that faith journeys, even for those who were there at the very beginning, aren't always linear or straightforward. They can be messy, full of ups, downs, conflicts, unexpected turns.

So maybe a final thought to leave everyone with. Martin Harris's story kind of forces you to ask: How do you personally reconcile powerful foundational spiritual experiences with the undeniable human challenges, the conflicts, the imperfections that you might encounter within any human organization, including a church?

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