Welcome to Study Faith with AI, where we use the power of AI to help you explore the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm Meg Jensen.

And I'm Paul Carter,

and we're Google AIs. Whether you're a lifelong member or just starting to learn about the Church, we're here to dive deep into its history, beliefs, and culture.

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Welcome to the deep dive. Today we're taking a deep dive into some, uh, really fascinating source material you shared about the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in early Mormonism.

Yeah, this group they were called back in 1835 and they faced some pretty intense challenges, you know, right from the get-go.

And the sources we have really lay out how those challenges led to well, wildly different paths for these foundational leaders.

It feels less about just dates and places and more about the human story, doesn't it? You've got faith, loyalty, conflict, really difficult choices.

Exactly.

And the sources give us this clear breakdown of the Twelve men originally called. Only three remained faithful throughout their lives. And uh one died in the line of duty,

Which leaves eight.

Yeah.

Eight of the original twelve who at some point after that 1835 calling were disciplined, meaning they were either disfellowshipped or actually excommunicated from the Church.

That, that ratio itself is just striking. Two-thirds of the original Quorum faced that kind of discipline.

Mh. So let's really unpack this history. What can we learn from the experiences of these Twelve men?

Well, just to set the scene a bit, calling the Twelve in 1835 was a major step for the early Church's organization. Initially, their role was sort of envisioned as a traveling High Council,

Right? Like organizing stakes where none existed yet.

Exactly. That focused on that kind of expansion and structure.

And the original members called that year were let's see Thomas B. Marsh, David W. Patten, Brigham Young Senior, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, William E. McLellin, Parley P. Pratt, Luke Johnson, William Smith, Orson Pratt, John F. Boynton, and Lyman E. Johnson. Quite a list.

Those were the men Joseph Smith called to, you know, stand right near the top. Second really only to the First Presidency.

But like you said, their paths went in very different directions falling into those distinct categories the sources highlight.

Okay. So, first you have the three who stayed in the Quorum the whole time from that initial calling, stayed faithful according to this material. That's Brigham Young Senior, Heber C. Kimball, and Parley P. Pratt. They kind of endured through it all.

They did. Then there's the one whose service was cut short, but in a really powerful way, David W. Patten.

Ah, the murder.

Yes. We learn about his death in October 1838 during all that conflict in Missouri. He was Captain Patten and the sources describe him ordering a charge against a mob at the Battle of Crooked River. He was wounded in that charge and died shortly after.

And there's even that scripture - right.

It speaks about him specifically saying, "David Patten, I have taken unto myself. Behold his priesthood no man taketh from him." He's really remembered for that ultimate sacrifice.

Okay. And then the largest group, the eight who face discipline,

Right? Thomas B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, William McLellin, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman Johnson, John F. Boynton, William Smith, and Orson Pratt. Every single one of them was either disfellowshipped or they resigned or they were excommunicated. at some point.

And that's the part that really grabs you. I think these weren't just, you know, average members. They were at the absolute core of the early leadership. What was it about their experiences that led so many of them away, even if just for a time?

Exactly. It forces you to look past the titles and see the individuals, the human struggles. Let's dig into three stories from those eight where the sources give us particularly rich detail. How about Thomas B. Marsh, John F. Boynton, and Orson Pratt? Their experiences sort of open different windows into the challenges these men faced.

Thomas B. Marsh is a fascinating place to start. He held the highest position among the Twelve, right? First President of the Quorum.

Yeah. Based on seniority, on age. He was really instrumental early on helping organize missions, serving effectively.

And we even see that leadership acknowledged in revelation D&C 112. It's partly addressed to him.

It is. It confirms his role as head of the Twelve.

But adds this, uh, really critical instruction.

Serve under the direction of the First Presidency.

Okay. This is where it gets really interesting. The source points to an early struggle for Marsh around 1837 in Kirtland. It calls it a minor crisis of faith and links it directly to his personal pride. Feeling that mission calls should come through him as President of the Twelve, not straight from Joseph Smith. It even mentions the call of Heber C. Kimball and Orson Hyde to Great Britain as, like, a specific point of tension for him.

And that same revelation D&C 112 contains that incredibly direct council: “Be thou humble.”

Wow. Yeah. And the source notes that, you know, to his credit, he initially seemed to take it to heart. He repented, worked to unify the Quorum, even stayed loyal when others were leaving over the Kirtland bank issues.

So he faced that pride issue, got this really sharp rebuke and revelation, and seemed to overcome it at least for a while. What led to the major break later on?

That happened in Missouri 1838. The source describes him getting increasingly uneasy with the escalating violence around Far West. He had initially. He urged members towards meekness, but then he got really concerned about acts of violence being committed by some Church members.

Okay.

This rising tension led him and Orson Hyde to actually leave Far West.

But just leaving wouldn't get him excommunicated, right? I mean, that seems like a choice someone might make in a really dangerous situation.

No, not just leaving. The sources pinpoint the pivotal act. He went to the Missouri authorities.

Wow.

And there he swore out an affidavit against Joseph Smith and other Church leaders. He accused them of basically inciting violence and made this pretty explosive claim that Joseph Smith intended to lead the Church in cutting a path of bloodshed all the way to the coast.

Wow, that's, that's huge. And how significant was that affidavit considered?

According to the source, incredibly significant. It suggests his statement might have been a major factor, maybe the major factor in Governor Lilburn Boggs issuing the infamous extermination order against the Mormons.

Goodness.

And it directly contributed to Joseph Smith and others being arrested and thrown into Liberty Jail. His words essentially put them in chains that was seen as the ultimate betrayal and it led directly to his excommunication in March 1839. Quite a fall from President of the Twelve. Okay, let's switch gears to another story. John F. Boynton, he kind of stands out in the sources because his background was a little different. He'd actually attended Columbia University,

Right? More formal education than many.

Yeah. And he was apparently a very effective missionary early on. Baptized a lot of people.

His reason for breaking seems different from Marsh's pride or the political tension. in Missouri.

It is quite different. His major break came during the Kirtland Safety Society controversy in 1837. You know, the Church-backed bank that ultimately failed,

Right? That caused a lot of trouble.

It did. And Boynton’s issue as the source presents it was rooted in his understanding or perhaps misunderstanding that the bank had been established by revelation.

Ah, so he thought it had divine backing and therefore shouldn't fail.

Exactly. So when it did fail, it seems to have fundamentally shaped his confidence in Joseph Smith's prophetic claims and leadership. The financial failure became a crisis of faith because he linked it so directly to divine assurance.

Okay. The source says he tried to justify his actions based on that bank failure and was actually dismissed from the Twelve in September 1837.

But here's a fascinating little twist. The source says just a week later he repented and was reinstated.

Really that quick a turnaround unlike Marsh's situation later. So what happened then? Why didn't it stick?

Well, despite being reinstated, it seems his underlying issues weren't fully resolved. Within just a few months, he aligned himself with other dissenters, they were criticizing Joseph Smith's leadership and according to the source, even attempted to forcefully take possession of the Kirtland Temple.

Forcefully take the temple. That's, that's a pretty dramatic act of dissent.

It really is. And that action led directly to his excommunication in April 1838.

So, what did Boynton do after leaving the Church? Did he just disappear?

Not at all. The source tells us he turned his considerable talents towards science. He lectured on natural history and geology. Even joined a US government geological expedition.

Wow.

And he worked on weapons design during the Civil War. Quite the inventor. Actually held 36 patents for things like a process for carbonic acid gas, the soda fountain, fire extinguishers, methods for extracting gold, electrical appliances, even a steel conversion process.

So he had a pretty significant and successful career. Career completely outside the Church. Did he remain antagonistic towards the Church?

The sources suggest he became less antagonistic later in life. It's even noted that he visited Brigham Young in Utah at one point and apparently advised Erastus Snow, who was an Apostle then, to stay involved with the Church. So definitely not a return to membership, but perhaps a softening over time. Okay, now let's turn to Orson Pratt. He's really recognized as this towering intellectual figure in early Church history. A mathematician, a writer, a theologian, a historian.

Oh, yeah. He made huge contributions, didn't he? All those pamphlets defending doctrine, the first published account of the First Vision.

An interesting account of several remarkable visions. Yeah.

And he worked on the editions of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, dividing them into verses, adding footnotes. Just a prolific and really influential mind.

Absolutely. Which makes his initial break particularly, well, poignant. The source says it happened around 1842. and it was tied directly to his struggle with accepting the principle of plural marriage. Specifically, this disaffected member, John C. Bennett, accused Joseph Smith of proposing marriage to Orson's wife, Sarah Pratt.

Oh, wow. And how did Orson react to that very personal accusation?

Well, Smith denied the accusation flat out, but Sarah, Orson's wife, claimed it had happened, and Orson believed his wife.

That's a tough spot.

Incredibly tough. The source describes days of debate between Orson and Joseph and others. But Orson wouldn't yield his position, wouldn't accept Joseph's denial over his wife's claim, and so he was excommunicated on August 20, 1842.

There's one source suggesting John C. Bennett was the ruin of Orson Pratt. That's a pretty strong claim about Bennett's influence in this.

It is a strong claim, though. Interestingly, the source also notes that Orson himself published a statement denying Bennett's claim that they were conspiring together to expose Mormonism. So, it suggests Orson's issues were deeply personal and theological, stemming from that accusation - not necessarily part of some broader anti-Church plot with Bennett.

Okay. And his challenges didn't just end there. Even after he, well, we'll get to his return, but even after Joseph Smith died, right? The sources show he supported Brigham Y. Young generally, but they had significant ongoing theological disagreements.

Big ones. Things like Brigham's decision to reestablish the First Presidency, the really thorny issue of legalizing slavery in Utah territory, and Brigham's controversial Adam-God teachings.

And Brigham Young, according to the sources, felt Orson sometimes preached false doctrine.

He did, and this obviously led to friction between them. Brigham took steps, it seems, to manage Orson's influence, like sending him on frequent, sometimes long missions.

And then there was that whole seniority dispute in the Quorum.

Yes, that's a big one. Brigham Young. Young adjusted the seniority lineup in the Quorum based on the date of readmission after excommunication, not the original call date,

Which moved Orson Pratt down.

Exactly. Moved him down below Apostles, who had actually been called after him initially. The source suggests this was potentially done at least in part to prevent Orson, who was older and had been in the Quorum longer initially than many others from ever becoming Church President based on the established seniority succession rule.

So even among those Apostles, who remained relatively steadfast after Joseph's death, there were these intense internal conflicts and power dynamics constantly at play.

Absolutely. It wasn't a simple unified picture even then.

It really is remarkable to see these figures, men at the absolute heart of the early movement, facing such profound personal crises. And, uh, out of those eight who were disciplined, the sources tell us two eventually came back. They were rebaptized into the Church.

That's right. Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Pratt. We just talked about their departures, which were quite different. What do the sources tell us about their returns?

Let's start with Marsh. His return seems like this powerful story of coming back after a really long time away.

It was. He was rebaptized in Utah on July 16th, 1857. It's almost two decades, nearly 19 years after his excommunication.

And it wasn't handled quietly, was it? Behind closed doors.

Not at all. The source describes Brigham Young publicly addressing Marsh's return.

Mhm.

And, uh, Brigham was pretty tough on him.

Yeah.

Yeah. He spoke quite harshly about Marshia's physical condition after being away from the Church, implying that leaving the gospel had caused his infirmity. He said things like, you know, Mormonism keeps men and women young and handsome. Essentially blaming Marsh's poor health on his time away.

Ouch. That sounds like Brigham maybe still holding onto some of the pain and resentment from Marsh's big betrayal back in Missouri.

Absolutely. You can feel that lingering resentment over the affidavit and the immense hardship it caused the Saints. But what's really compelling is Marsh's reaction to this public dressing down. The source describes him as humbly taking his last whipping. It shows this profound change, this humility that contrasts so sharply with the man whose pride contributed to his initial downfall years earlier. After that, he dedicated himself again to the Church.

And did the story end with reconciliation between him and Brigham?

It seems so. The source notes a later meeting where Thomas and Brigham apparently ended up as friends. It paints this picture of forgiveness finally coming from Brigham's side, met by that remarkable humility from Thomas's side. Marsh lived faithfully until his death in 1866. Although the source does mention he faced ongoing health and possibly some mental challenges later in life. It's just a profound example of humility and forgiveness making a return possible even after such a devastating break.

And Orson Pratt's return, that was much faster, wasn't it?

Oh, much much faster. He reconciled with Joseph Smith, was rebaptized, and put right back into the Quorum on January 20, 1843. That's only about five months after his excommunication.

Wow. Only five months.

And the source adds this interesting little nuance. It suggests that Orson Pratt himself maybe never fully considered himself truly excommunicated during that brief period. And perhaps by some interpretation, Joseph Smith didn't either.

So despite that really deep personal pain around the plural marriage accusation and believing his wife, he found his way back relatively quickly.

He did. And importantly, despite those significant ongoing theological conflicts he later had with Brigham Y Young, the whole seniority demotion issue, Orson Pratt remained a hugely important figure in the Church.

Yeah, he kept contributing massively.

Absolutely. He continued to publish, teach, serve missions, contribute intellectually right up until the end. He remained a leading faithful member until his death in 1881.

Okay, so we've looked at the faithful three, the martyr. We've deep dived into three of the eight who left and two of those returned. What about the other six from that group who were disciplined, the ones who based on the sources didn't rejoin or weren't rebaptized.

Right? That leaves Orson Hyde, William E. McLellin, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, John F. Boynton whom we already discussed, and William Smith.

Wait, Orson Hyde? Didn't you mention him leaving Missouri with Thomas Marsh?

I did. The Thomas Marsh source mentions Orson Hyde left Far West with Marsh because he was also concerned about the violence. But that same source then adds a crucial follow-up. It notes that Orson Hyde later quote: “comes back in and leads a remarkable life of service.”

Ah, so that implies he also returned to the Church after that difficult period similar to Marsh and Orson Pratt finding their way back eventually.

Exactly. It strongly suggests he returned and went on to have a significant long-term role in Church leadership. So that actually means three of the eight who faced discipline eventually returned and remained active. That's an important clarification.

Okay, so three returned. Marsh, Orson, Pratt, Orson Hyde. What about the others who didn't?

Well, we already talked quite a bit about John F. Boynton and his post excommunication life as a successful scientist and inventor. The source notes he became less antagonistic and even offered counsel favorable to the Church later, but it doesn't indicate he ever formally rejoined.

Right? So that leaves McLellin, the Johnson brothers, and William Smith.

For William E. McLellin, the source simply lists his excommunication in May 1838 and notes his death much later in Independence, Missouri, in 1883, but it doesn't really offer any details about his life or activities after leaving the Church. Just kind of disappears from the narrative there.

And the Johnson brothers, Luke and Lyman,

The sources link them together, saying they joined with other dissenters in Kirtland who were trying to, uh, overthrow the Church leadership there and even take control of the temple.

Back to that Kirtland temple struggle.

Yes. Lyman was excommunicated in April 1838 and apparently sent a letter formally rejecting any association with the Church. For Luke, the note just indicates his term as an Apostle ended by resignation around that same time. But again, like McLellin, the sources don't really track their lives after they left.

And finally, William Smith, Joseph Smith's own brother.

Yeah, that relationship adds another layer of complexity, doesn't it? The source simply notes his excommunication happened later in 1845 after Joseph's death, but it gives no specific reason for the excommunication or any details about what happened to him afterward.

So for those four McLellin, the two Johnson brothers and William Smith, the sources we have are much less detailed about their paths after leaving the Church compared to the rich stories of Boynton, Marsh, or Orson Pratt.

So when you pull back and look at this whole complex picture, the faithfulness, the martyrdom, the dissent, the returns, what does it all tell us? What can we take away about the early Church, about Joseph Smith's leadership, maybe even about faith itself?

Well, if we connect this to the bigger picture, I think the sources really demonstrate very clearly that from the absolute beginning, the Church's leaders, even those called by revelation to the Quorum of the Twelve were intensely human. Yeah, they had complex motivations. They had real struggles. They had flaws just like people today. It wasn't a group of perfect Saints by any means.

It definitely puts a human face on Church history, doesn't it? You see Joseph Smith calling these men to the highest positions, trusting them immensely, but also being willing to take disciplinary action, sometimes severe action like excommunication, other times sharp rebukes in revelation when they dissented or acted against Church principles.

And the reasons for those breaks, they weren't always simple or clear-cut. We see how disagreements over financial matters, especially when tied to perceived divine promises like with Boynton and the Kirtland Bank, could become a major breaking point.

Right? And we see how issues of personal pride and clashes over authority like Thomas Marsh's initial struggle could really fester and lead to problems.

And then you have the external pressures like the intense violence in Missouri that pushed Marsh towards that affidavit or deeply personal conflicts like the accusations involving Orson Pratt's wife Sarah that could severely test faith and relationships right at the core.

It just underscores that the challenges to faith and loyalty back then were so multifaceted. It involved doctrine, finances, authority, personal relationships, external political and social events, all of it mixed together.

But importantly, we also see this capacity for forgiveness and readmission, particularly under Joseph Smith.

Think about the relatively quick returns of Orson Pratt and Orson Hyde.

Yeah.

And even the eventual hard-won return of Thomas Marsh showing that the door wasn't necessarily permanently closed.

Although, as you noted, the struggles didn't just vanish after Joseph's death. The ongoing conflicts between Orson Pratt and and Brigham Young show that navigating leadership dynamics and serious theological disagreements remained a real challenge even among those who stayed faithful to the main body of the Church after the succession.

Definitely it remained complex.

So thinking about our listeners today, what does all this mean for you? These historical accounts seem to offer some pretty powerful perspectives.

I think so. For one, they really remind us that complexity and struggle and people having difficulties with their faith or membership, that's not new to the Church. It's been there from the start.

Yeah, that history of prominent individuals struggling is, as one source put it, a story as old as time. People have been coming and going right from the beginning.

And maybe understanding that these early leaders were flawed, imperfect human beings while still being called to these incredibly significant roles can make the history feel more relatable. As the source suggested, when you start to know them.

And kind of become more fully fleshed out characters, you can understand them a little bit better.

And perhaps it can also you know, temper our expectations about current leaders too, recognizing they are also human, dealing with their own challenges.

Possibly. And Thomas B. Marsh's difficult journey, especially his eventual return, seems to powerfully highlight the significance of humility and forgiveness. His story emphasizes how crucial humility was in overcoming that initial pride and making his return possible. And on the flip side, the eventual need for forgiveness and acceptance from Brigham and the community even after such a deep betrayal. While Orson Pratt's story maybe offers a different but also important lesson that it was possible at least for him to remain a faithful, highly contributing member even while holding significant theological disagreements with top Church leadership.

Though as we saw, it clearly wasn't always easy or without serious friction.

Right? And ultimately, maybe the most profound message derived from Thomas Marsh's return after so long is what one source captured so simply and movingly. It doesn't matter where you've been. What matters is where you're at right now and where your heart is and what your relationship with the Savior is at this moment, nothing else matters.

That's powerful.

And maybe for anyone listening who has loved ones who have left the Church, the complexity of these stories, the fact that people left for varied reasons and that some like Marsh Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde did eventually return offers a perspective that there's always been this complexity of people coming and going. Hopefully, they come back. And even if they don't, perhaps these accounts imply a need for ongoing love and support, recognizing the human struggles involved. So when you look at this original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, you really do see more than just a list of names from the past, don't you? It's this vivid, incredibly complex tapestry of human experience.

Absolutely. You see incredible dedication side by side with deep faith, but also soaring ambition, humbling pride, intense conflict, devastating betrayal, hard-won repentance, powerful forgiveness, and truly enduring contributions all in the same group of Twelve men.

Their collective story and their individual stories just powerfully underscore that navigating faith and leadership and community.

If even these men who walked and talked with Joseph Smith, who were foundational pillars of the early Church, faced such fundamental struggles and had to make such incredibly difficult choices about their faith and their loyalty. What does that tell us about the true nature of faith itself? And maybe about the deeply individual journey required of every single believer, whether they lived in 1835 or live today.

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