Welcome to Study Faith with AI, where we use the power of AI to help you explore the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm Meg Jensen.

And I'm Paul Carter.

And we're Google AIs. Whether you're a lifelong member or just starting, to learn about the Church. We're here to dive deep into its history, beliefs, and culture.

So, if you're ready to learn, you're in the right place.

That's right.

Let's get started.

All right. Get ready because today we're going deep, like really deep. Oh, yeah.

Into the world of young Joseph Smith way before any First Vision or Golden Plates,

right?

Back when he was known as a money digger,

basically a treasure seeker.

Yeah.

And we're going to explore how all this early stuff

Yeah.

might actually change how we see the whole foundation of Mormonism.

It's interesting. You know, it's easy to just think about treasure digging as

like just superstition.

Yeah. Like just superstition. But in the early 1800s, it was a pretty common thing

really.

Yeah. It was like this blend of folk magic

and uh and these new scientific ideas that were coming out.

It's kind of like a gold rush but with magic.

Yeah. Even Benjamin Franklin, like he was into dowsing and stuff.

Wow. I didn't realize how widespread it was.

Oh, yeah. It was a time when people were just like captivated by the earth, you know.

Yeah.

And all the secrets it might be hiding.

Makes sense. Everyone wants to find buried treasure. Yes.

So, to um really understand how this all fits into Joseph Smith's story,

Yeah.

we're going to be looking at court records,

okay,

eyewitness accounts from people who knew him,

right?

And even like dive into to what the Smith family themselves believed and did.

You know, that's what makes this so fascinating is that it's not just these abstract ideas we're talking about. We're dealing with the actual lives of Joseph Smith and the people closest to him.

Exactly.

And these experiences could uh could really change how we understand his later claims as a prophet.

All right. So, let's try to picture the world Joseph Smith was growing up in.

Okay,

we're talking about the burned-over district of New York, right, in the early 1800s. Uh-huh.

This place just on fire with religious revival.

A lot of energy, a lot of excitement.

Yeah. But along with all this religious fervor, there was this like equally intense fascination with the mystical and finding buried treasure.

Absolutely.

And the Smith family was right in the middle of it all.

Oh, yeah. And they weren't just watching from the sidelines, either. The Smith family was actively involved in folk magic practices, particularly treasure digging. Joseph Smith, Senior Joseph Smith Jr.'s father was known as a rodsman using a divining rod to locate lost objects and treasure.

So these practices were already part of Joseph Smith Jr.'s upbringing even before he emerged as a religious leader.

Yes. And it's important to understand that terms like seer, peeper, glass looker, or even money digger were commonly used to describe individuals who claimed to have supernatural abilities to find buried treasure.

Okay.

These individuals were sought after by those hoping to strike it rich

and it was In this environment that Joseph Smith Jr. started to develop his own reputation as a seer. Right.

Exactly. He followed in his father's footsteps using a seer stone, notably a brown peep stone to locate lost objects and of course treasure. This stone would later become central to his claims of translating the Book of Mormon. But in his early years, it was primarily associated with his treasure seeking activities.

So he was basically a treasure hunter for hire, using his seer stone to supposedly locate hidden riches. Essentially, yes. And there are numerous accounts from people who hired him or participated in these treasure digs. Some, like Josiah Stewell, were convinced of his supernatural abilities. Stowell even financed several treasure hunts with Joseph, hoping to find a legendary Spanish silver mine.

But not everyone was convinced, right?

No, not at all. There were plenty of skeptics who accused Joseph Jr. of using trickery and deception to enhance his reputation and gain financial support. Some claimed to have witnessed him planting objects and then discovering them with seer stone.

H. So, let's dig into some specific examples of his treasure digging exploits. What kind of details can we uncover from the historical accounts?

Well, one of the most detailed and compelling accounts comes from Willard Chase. He wasn't just a casual observer. He actually worked with Joseph Smith on several treasure digging ventures and claimed to have witnessed him using deception.

What makes Chase's account so significant? Was he an enemy of Joseph Smith or early Mormonism?

Not at all. In fact, Chase was a believer in the supernatural and involved in treasure seeking. himself. He initially viewed Joseph Smith as genuinely gifted. But as they worked together, Chase became increasingly disillusioned, ultimately concluding that Joseph was using trickery to create the illusion of supernatural abilities.

So if Chase wasn't driven by animosity, what specifically led him to believe that Joseph Smith was a fraud? What did he actually observe?

In one instance, Chase describes Joseph using his seer stone to locate a supposedly valuable object buried in a field. But Chase noticed something suspicious. Joseph seemed to be subtly directing the digging towards a spot where he had previously hidden an object himself. It was as if he was orchestrating the discovery to bolster his reputation.

Hm, that's a pretty bold accusation. Are there any other accounts that support Chase's claims?

Yes, there are. Sally Chase, Willard's wife, also provided testimony claiming that Joseph Smith employed deceptive techniques during these treasure hunts. She described him using a special type of dirt that would glimmer in the moonlight, creating the impression that he had unearthed precious metals.

Wow, it sounds like he was a master manipulator, playing on people's belief in the supernatural and using his knowledge of folk magic practices to create convincing illusions. But these treasure digging ventures weren't just harmless games, right? Didn't people invest significant sums of money in these endeavors?

They absolutely did. And that raises serious ethical questions about Joseph Smith's actions, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he genuinely believed in his abilities. He was still profiting from people's hopes and beliefs. Josiah Stowell, for example, invested a considerable amount of money in the seerch for that elusive Spanish silver mine guided by Joseph Smith's supposed visions.

And as we know that mine was never found.

No, it wasn't. And that's not an isolated incident. Yeah.

Numerous accounts suggest that Joseph Smith's treasure hunts rarely, if ever, resulted in any actual treasure being found. This pattern of failed ventures further supports the claims of deception and raises concerns about his motivation. So, we've got these treasure digging stories, accusations of trickery, and a recurring theme of financial exploitation. It's difficult to reconcile this image with the traditional narrative

of Joseph Smith as a pious prophet. And it makes those parallels between treasure guardians and the angel Moroni even more striking.

It does, doesn't it? It makes you wonder how much of the Book of Mormon narrative might have been influenced, even subconsciously, by those early treasure digging experiences. themes of hidden treasures, divine messengers, and overcoming obstacles to access spiritual knowledge are all present in both contests.

It's a fascinating and unsettling connection. And speaking of unsettling connections, you mentioned earlier a mysterious object called the Jupiter Talisman. What's the story behind this talisman and how does it fit into the larger picture?

The Jupiter Talisman is a fascinating and controversial artifact. It's a magical object engraved with astrological symbols associated with the planet Jupiter that was reportedly found among Joseph's possessions after his death.

Wait, so there's physical evidence connecting Joseph Smith to a magical object? What kind of magic are we talking about here?

The Jupiter talisman is a type of astrological magic believed to harness the powers associated with specific planets and constellations. The symbols and inscriptions on the talisman suggest that it was intended to attract wealth, power, and influence, themes that resonate with Joseph Smith's early involvement in treasure seeking.

So the existence of this talisman, if authentic, further solidifies the connection between Joseph Smith and the world of magic. But you mentioned that it's controversial. Why is that?

The provenance of the Jupiter talisman is heavily debated. Some argue that it's a genuine artifact that belonged to Joseph Smith, while others believe it's a later fabrication intended to discredit him or sensationalize his story.

Even if we can't definitively prove its authenticity, the very existence of this talisman speaks volumes about the cultural milieu in which Joseph Smith lived and operated. It underscores the prevalence of magical beliefs and practices during that era and it raises questions about how those beliefs might have shaped his worldview.

Absolutely. And whether or not the Jupiter talisman was genuinely his. The fact that it's become such a focal point of debate highlights the deep unease surrounding the intersection of magic and religion in the context of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

So it makes you wonder, did Joseph Smith ever really let go of this magical way of thinking?

That's the big question, isn't it? Or did some of it like stick around and shape how he understood Revelation,

right?

And maybe even influence the Book of Mormon itself.

Yeah. Like how much did this early stuff impact his later claims as a prophet,

right? Exactly.

And that's where things get really mysterious with the seer stones.

Okay. Yeah.

These were a huge part of Joseph Smith's story.

Uhhuh.

He said he used them to translate the Book of Mormon.

Wow.

And get this, the church actually still has one of those seer stones today.

That's incredible.

Yeah, it's pretty wild.

You know, we have to remember that while these practices might seem strange to us today,

right? Like unbelievable.

Yeah. Unbelievable. But back then in Joseph Smith's time,

they were just part of how people saw the world.

People really thought they could find answers through these methods.

Absolutely. They were looking for guidance and yeah, even wealth.

So, some people truly believed in Joseph's uh abilities.

Oh, yeah.

There's this one account about David Whitmer.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, he later became a witness to the Book of Mormon, right?

And he was trying to use Joseph's seer stone,

but he couldn't see anything.

Nothing at all.

Nope. But Joseph, he claimed he could use that same stone to read signs 160 miles distant.

Wow. He was confident.

Yeah, that's some serious confidence.

It sounds like he had this aura of like power and mystery around him. Totally. This ability to see beyond what normal people could,

right? But as his reputation grew, Yeah.

So did the scrutiny.

Oh, I bet.

And that brings us to a big turning point. Joseph Smith's trial for treasure digging in 1826.

Oh, wow. Okay.

This trial is a major piece of the puzzle.

I can imagine.

And for decades, the church tried to downplay it.

Really?

Yeah. They even denied it happened.

H interesting.

It's only recently they've openly acknowledged it.

So, it's like a sensitive topic.

Yeah. I think it shows how complicated it is for the church.

Yeah.

To um try to fit this part of Joseph in his life

with his claims of being a prophet,

right? Like it raises some uncomfortable questions.

Definitely. And the testimonies from this trial are super interesting.

Oh, I bet.

Josiah Stowell, the guy who hired Joseph to find treasure,

testified under oath that he positively knows it to be true.

Wow.

That Joseph could actually see things buried underground.

How do you explain that?

Yeah. How do we reconcile that with Joseph later claiming divine revelation,

right? Was he tricking people early on?

Yeah.

Or did he truly believe he had these powers?

Even if those powers were, you know, more like folk magic than from God.

It's tricky. You know, on the one hand, we have historical records

that show the Smith family was struggling financially.

Yeah. Money was tight.

Exactly. And treasure digging was a way to like escape poverty, right? But there's also evidence that they genuinely believed in this stuff.

So, it wasn't just about money,

right? It seems like their belief went beyond just wanting to get rich. There's this story about Joseph being hired to find a Spanish silver mine.

Ow. Wow.

But like it's straight out of a legend.

What do you mean?

The treasure always seems to slip away.

Oh, no.

Either going deeper underground

or just vanishing completely.

It's like something out of a movie,

right?

Yeah.

It really makes you wonder if these treasure digging experiences

Yeah.

with all the mystery and seerching for something hidden

were like a blueprint for the stories he would tell later

about the Book of Mormon.

Exactly. It's a really fascinating connection.

It really is.

It just makes the whole transformation from treasure seeker to prophet even more mysterious.

It makes you wonder.

Yeah.

How much did those early experiences shape his ideas about God and revelation and the stories he eventually shared with the world?

Exactly. It's like we're seeing this connection between folk magic and like religious revelation.

Yeah, definitely.

But what's really interesting is that it's not just a one-way thing.

What do you mean?

It's not just folk magic influencing Joseph Smith's later claims. We can actually see bits of that magical worldview.

Oh, wow.

In Mormon scripture and beliefs,

like woven into the fabric of it.

Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting. For example, the story of Nephi killing

Laban

to get the brass plates,

right?

It's justified as being commanded by God.

Yeah.

But it also kind of fits with that treasure digging mindset.

In what way? Where sometimes like you have to do extreme things. Yeah. Even morally questionable things

to get a hidden treasure, right,

that's guarded by powerful forces.

It's like the ends justify the means

kind of. So, we're not just talking about a young guy messing around with treasure digging.

It's bigger than that.

Yeah. We're talking about a whole way of seeing the supernatural,

right?

That might have shaped how Joseph Smith saw and understood his own experiences

and ultimately influencing a whole new religion.

Exactly. Which brings us to a really important question for anyone thinking about the origins of Mormonism.

Okay. What's up?

If Joseph Smith's early worldview was so rooted in folk magic,

Yeah.

Does that mean his later claims as a prophet aren't true?

That's a tough one.

Yeah. It's a question a lot of people struggle with

for sure.

And I don't think there's an easy answer,

right?

But I do think we need to acknowledge that early Mormonism

came out of a culture

where belief in magic and the supernatural was everywhere

like it was just part of life.

Exactly. It wasn't just some fringe idea.

It was mainstream,

right? It was part of the cultural landscape.

So, we have to look at Joseph Smith's treasure digging past within that context.

Yeah. Both the problems and the possible explanations,

right? Because for some people, the evidence of folk magic, Yeah.

is just totally incompatible with the idea that he was a true prophet.

They might say he was either lying to people

Yeah.

or that he was fooling himself.

Like he thought magic was revelation.

Exactly. But for others, being involved in folk magic early on

doesn't necessarily mean his later claims are false.

Right. They might say his treasure digging was a sincere,

even if misguided

Yeah.

seerch for truth and spiritual power.

Like maybe he was just using the tools he had at the time.

Exactly. They might argue that just because his early methods were flawed

doesn't mean his later experiences

like the First Vision,

right? Or the translation of the Book of Mormon

weren't real.

Yeah. Like maybe he really did have this experience.

They might also point out that Joseph Smith himself

Yeah.

seemed to move away from treasure digging

as he got older.

Yeah. As his religious beliefs became stronger.

Yeah. Makes sense.

And this is where that example from the Doctrine and Covenants comes in.

Oh, right.

It's a revelation that originally said Oliver Cowdery had the gift of working with the sprout.

The sprout.

Yeah. Which is another way of saying a divining rod.

Oh, wow. So, like a dowsing rod.

Exactly. But later it was changed to the gift of Aaron,

which is much more vague.

Yeah. It makes you wonder if they changed it

to downplay the connection to folk magic.

Maybe as Joseph Smith's understanding of revelation changed.

It's like we're seeing a shift in worldview happening right there in scripture.

It's really interesting.

It suggests that even in the early church, they knew they needed to separate the magical stuff

from their theology,

right? From the developing theology of Mormonism.

But even with that shift,

yeah,

the question remains,

did those early influences ever really go away completely

or did they still shape how Joseph Smith understood revelation

and the nature of God?

I think that's something everyone has to figure out for themselves.

Yeah.

You know, as they look at the evidence and think about the different interpretations.

It's not about finding one answer that will satisfy everybody,

right? It's more about honestly and thoughtfully exploring

the complexities.

Yeah. The complexities around Joseph Smith's life

and the origins of Mormonism.

Exactly. Our goal here isn't to tell anyone what to believe.

We're just trying to present the information.

Yeah. Delve into the history

and encourage people to think for themselves.

Exactly. And I think that's the most important thing to take away from this.

What's that?

It's not about proving or disproving Joseph Smith's claims.

It's about understanding the bigger picture.

Yeah. Understanding the man,

the world he lived in,

and the things that influenced him

that shaped his journey

from treasure seeker to prophet.

It's a fascinating story

because ultimately, this isn't just about Joseph Smith.

It's about something bigger.

Yeah. It's about understanding faith,

the power of belief,

and how our past experiences,

even the ones we might see as mistakes,

can shape how we see the world

and our place in it.

It's like we're trying to balance these two totally different ways of seeing the world.

Yeah. The magical and the religious.

And while early Mormonism might have tried to like distance itself from folk magic,

we're seeing that some of it stuck around.

Yeah. It's there

and maybe even shaped the book of It's a really interesting thought.

It keeps coming back to that testimony from Josiah Stowell,

the guy who hired Joseph.

Yeah. He said under oath that he positively knows it to be true.

Wow.

That Joseph could find buried stuff.

That's a powerful statement.

It really is. And it makes us think about how to understand Joseph's abilities.

Like, was it a trick?

Yeah. Some might say it's proof he was deceiving people,

that he was using illusions to convince people.

But others might say that even if he wasn't getting messages from God at that point.

Okay.

Maybe he believed he really had these powers.

Like he thought it was a natural gift,

right? Like a sensitivity to something we can't see.

That let him find things others couldn't.

And then maybe as he got older and had more spiritual experiences.

Yeah.

That understanding of his abilities changed.

Like what he thought was a natural gift

became a divine power

because of his religious beliefs.

Exactly. So we're not necessarily talking about a sudden change from fraud to profit.

More like a gradual thing.

Yeah. A spiritual journey where his understanding of his abilities transform over time.

That makes sense. It raises a question though.

What's that?

If Joseph Smith's worldview did change

Uhhuh.

How did that affect the Book of Mormon itself?

Like, can we see traces of that magical worldview in the text?

Yeah.

Well, we already talked about Nephi and the brass plates,

right? Where he's commanded by God

to do something that seems morally wrong.

It's a tricky situation.

And there are other parts of the Book of Mormon that fit with the treasure digging theme.

Oh, like what?

Well, the gold plates themselves could be seen as a hidden treasure.

Oh, yeah. Guarded by ancient forces.

And to get those plates, Joseph had to decipher languages,

overcome obstacles,

and receive divine guidance.

It's like all the elements of a treasure hunt.

Exactly. And the Book of Mormon becomes the ultimate treasure,

a spiritual one,

found through divine help and human effort.

That's a really interesting way to look at it.

So, where does this leave us as we try to make sense of all this.

Yeah. Do we have to choose between seeing Joseph Smith as a fake or a prophet?

I don't think so.

Me neither.

I think we can acknowledge the historical context,

see how folk magic influenced him early on

and still appreciate the impact he had on so many lives.

It's about seeing him as a real person

with all his complexities

and recognizing the things that made him who he was.

And maybe through all this, we can each find our own way of understanding Joseph Smith's life.

Yeah, maybe it's in that space where the magical and the religious meet

that we can learn something new about faith

and the seerch for truth.

This deep dive has definitely given us a lot to think about.

It has.

It reminds us that history, especially religious history, isn't always clear-cut.

It's messy.

Yeah. Full of contradictions and complexities.

And that's what makes it so fascinating.

Because it's in those messy details

where we often find the most important truths

about ourselves in the world. world.

So, as we wrap up our look at young Joseph Smith,

from treasure seeker to prophet,

I think the biggest takeaway is this.

Okay,

the journey of faith isn't always a straight line.

There are twists and turns.

It's about exploring,

questioning,

and always learning.

We're all seerching for something precious,

something that will make our lives better,

give us meaning,

and sometimes the most amazing discoveries

are in the places we least expect.

Thanks for joining us for this deep dive.

It's been a pleasure.

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